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Talk:Grundgetta
Grundgetta in season 2 Hi. I'm watching Sesame Street season 2, episode 5 (with my one-year-old daughter) via NetFlix and spotted Grundgetta around the 50 minute mark, about ten years earlier than her first appearance according to this Wiki. :Hi and welcome! It looks like you're watching Episode 1952 (which is from Season 15, a year after Grundgetta debuted). What you're watching is the second volume in a collection of classic Sesame Street episodes; none of them are actually from the second season. Hope that helps ;) -- Jon (talk) 18:14, February 21, 2013 (UTC) Grungetta vs Grundgetta I'm not sure about the spelling of her name. Here's what I've found so far: below Can other folks add references? -- Danny (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :The books released from 93-97 are all using Grundgetta, and they would be using the most current character guide. Unpaved in 1998 uses Grungetta, but I would expect him to be working off of older archive materials. Meaning that Grungetta was changed to Grundgetta, posibly even at the character guide creation stage. That's just my best guess based on what we have right now. —Scott (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC) ::I just added some Sesame Workshop links. It seems that inside documents use both spellings, but based on my previous post, my best guess is still that the "d" was added in relation to the creation of the 1990s character style guide. —Scott (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :::That said, I find no evidence for "the Grouch" at all, so I think we should move it back to Grungetta. —Scott (talk) 16:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC) ::::I totally agree about losing "the Grouch". -- Danny (talk) 16:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :::::I added a few more to the lists. Outside Unpaved and a few newsletters I can't find any official uses of Grungetta. But there are a lot more substantial writen uses with the "d". -- Brad D. (talk) 20:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC) ::::::Any subsequent press releases made after the first use of a potential misspelling are going to keep using it until it's corrected. Based on my observations above, it still looks to me that the materials used by Unpaved and the CYW newsletters pre-date that Character Style Guide used for merchandise. Assumingly, Grungetta is so named because she's "grungy" like a grouch would be. There's no such word as "grundgy." —Scott (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :Michael just added Grungetta for the Sesame Street 35 Years Anniversary Game. Like the newsletters and Unpaved, the makers of that game would also be using older archive materials. —Scott (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC) ::Going through Lexis-Nexis (harder to search since they re-organized), I came across 30 uses of Grungetta since 1991 in assorted news articles (as well as transcripts of an ABC TV news story when Zoe debuted). Only five used Grundgetta, though one was from a 1993 Christian Science Monitor quiz, with a byline to "The Children's Television Workshop." *However*, I also found a 1984 photo caption, promoting the appearance of Sally Ride, which used "Grundgetta"; that seems to indicate that if it is a "potential misspelling," it dates pretty far back. I didn't pay much attention at the time, but Danny, come across any references to her in the CTW archives? I'd tend to consider their usage to be more reliable than about anything else we've found. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :::How accurate is our claim for her debut in Season 14? I know the CTW Archives only go so far, but I keep forgetting at what year they stop. —Scott (talk) 23:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC) ::::As for her debut year, no idea who added that or what the source was. As for the archives, they go far enough that they included the Sally Ride/Grun(d)getta pic, but I forget what the caption spelling was, if any (a few just identify the celebrity and expect you to know the Muppet). They generally seem to stop around Season 17 (there's stuff on the Mr. Hooper's death episode), or thereabouts. In general, though, the last few seasons covered mostly just had the overview presskit, with cast and credits and season highlights, or features on TV specials or other special events that season, and not much else. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 23:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC) :::::I just found the Sally Ride picture in the batch of stuff Danny found at the Archives. It's spelled Grungetta and cited as Season 15. —Scott (talk) 00:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC) ::::::Good. I'd trust that over the AP caption (especially since it's the caption as input in their online database, and so may or may not be the original spelling). As for the debut issue, it seems Danny probably copied it from Sesame Encyclopedia, but our own earliest info has her appearing as far back as Episode 1736, from Season 14. So it may be accurate. On that score, I'd think it would be worth rewording (i.e. "her earliest known appearance was in Season 14"), until we find a press release or other source which cements it as the debut. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC) :::::::Yeah, I was just about to say the same about her debut. I know Danny used the SSEncyclopedia to start some pages way back in the day and they used season 14 for her entry there. —Scott (talk) 00:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC) ::::::::There are also mistakes in the performer box. The performer box mentions that Brian Muehl performed Grungetta from 1982-1985, and Pam Arciero took over in 1986. Brian Muehl left in 1984, and I doubt that Grungetta would stop being used for a year and then get a new performer. Plus, she has a few lines in Sesame Street Presents: Follow That Bird, and she sounds the same as she does now. I don't know how different the voices are, but Brian Muehl didn't perform Telly or Barkly in that movie, and wasn't credited, so I'm positive that Pam Arciero performed her there (Arciero is credited as an "additonal muppet performer" in the credits). --Minor muppetz 00:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Sorry, I want to reopen this... According to the sources listed below, "Grundgetta" has been used more often than "Grungetta". I think the four books and two albums that say "Grundgetta" trump Sesame Street Unpaved, and the three press kits trump the three "Sesame Beat" newsletters. I think the questions about whether the spelling was changed over the years is interesting, but we don't have evidence to back that up yet. But we do have enough textual evidence (books and albums) to suggest that "Grundgetta" is the predominant spelling. I propose changing the name of this article to "Grundgetta", and then add a section to the article about the divergent spellings. What do other folks think? -- Danny (talk) 14:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC) :I oppose the change to Grundgetta. As I explained above, the storybooks are all using one source: the Character Style Guides. So that counts as one source which I don't think trumps anything. Unpaved would have been using more accurate source material dating back farther than the 1990s version of the style guide given out to licensors. Also, the more recent press kits use the spelling with a d, while the older ones don't. The number of newer ones isn't really a factor since each subsequent spelling after a misspelling is just going to copy it the same way. So the older press trumps the newer press IMO. —Scott (talk) 14:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC) ::I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. The oldest material that we have (the 1984 photo) says "Grundgetta", as does the newest material that we have. ::I've got a CTW document from the archives -- a "Muppet Character Descriptions" document from 1994 that says Grundgetta. (I posted the scans at the bottom of the page.) ::There's also Pam Arciero's bio, which indicates that G's performer also thinks that the name is Grundgetta. ::I think your interpretation -- that it was spelled Grungetta, and then "misspelled" as Grundgetta -- is speculation. There's evidence from 1984 through 2007 for Grundgetta, including internal documents, press kits, books, albums and a plush toy. ::We don't have evidence that the character was officially spelled one way and then changed, or spelled one way and then misspelled another way. What we have is more sources saying "Grundgetta". -- Danny (talk) 15:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC) :::Well, the 1984 photo caption from the Associated Press is trumped by the 1983-84 Sally Ride photo caption directly from CTW. :::My interpretation is definitely speculation based on the facts we have so far. I just think that press releases (including Pam's bio which would have been written by current press folk -- not Pam) only count as one source since each one is going to copy the last one. Which is why I go back to Borgenicht's source and the season 15 CTW photo. :::Just as we have sources through the years for Grundgetta, we also have them for Grungetta. The point I'm trying to make is that the score so far -- as evidenced by the tree structure below, taking into account the fact that the sub-bulleted items use the same source -- finds Grungetta in the lead. I don't think adding more storybooks or newsletters to the list changes that balance, since again, they're all culling from the same source. :::I think when it all comes down to it, I'd like for us to be using the name she was originally given. As of now, it seems that Sesame Workshop officially calls her Grundgetta (whether by accident or purpose). So maybe you're right and that may be the best to go with right now until we can find irrefutable evidence for the very original spelling. —Scott (talk) 16:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC) ::::Well, I think the ideal thing would be to hear from somebody who really knows the facts -- someone from Sesame, or Pam Arciero, or whoever. If they said, "It was originally Grungetta, but it's been misspelled a lot," then that's one thing. But they could also say, "It was originally Grungetta, but we decided that didn't look right, so we changed it to Grundgetta" -- in which case, I think Grundgetta would be the "correct" spelling for us. ::::Of course, the most likely answer would be, "I dunno, I've always spelled it like this." We're probably putting more effort into this question than anybody from Sesame ever did. ::::Anyway, in the absence of that ideal source, I think we need to go with what we have more evidence for. I think the "Muppet Character Descriptions" and the storybooks/albums lean us towards Grundgetta. -- Danny (talk) 16:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC) :::::There hasn't been any more discussion on this. Can I move the article to Grundgetta? -- Danny (talk) 02:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC) ::::::I think moving it would be the safest thing to do. Whether the name has always been Grundgetta, or it change from Grungetta (either intentionally or accidentially) is an interesting question to figure out, but given the information we have it seems that Grundgetta is currently (right or wrong) the commonly accepted and officially used spelling for the name in most merchandise, books, press releases, show descriptions and other works. Unless we find a more definitive source that says the name is currently spelled otherwise I say we should move to Grundgetta for all the reasons Danny has stated. -- Brad D. (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC) Okay. I moved the article, and I added a section to the article listing most of the evidence that we have. (The "Name" section is actually longer than the whole rest of the article -- maybe it'll inspire somebody to expand the article!) Please feel free to edit that section, and make it flow better. -- Danny (talk) 15:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC) Sources * Grungetta ** CTW Archives (Sally Ride photo) ** Big Bird's Square Meal (1988) ** Sesame Street Unpaved (1998) ** Sesame Workshop's video archive department ** CTW Newsletters *** Sesame Street Beat Newsletter (2001) *** Sesame Family Newsletter (2002) *** Sesame Family Newsletter (2003) ** Merchandise *** Sesame Street 35 Years Anniversary Game (2004) *** Elmo's Delicious Christmas (2007) * Grundgetta **AP photo caption (1984) **CTW document: "Sesame Street Muppet Character Descriptions" (1994) **Merchandise *** Welcome Home, Big Bird (1985) *** From Trash to Treasure (1993) *** Oscar's Grouch Jamboree (1994) *** Around the Corner on Sesame Street (1994) *** Applause Plush Doll (shirt and tag) (1994) *** Oscar's Trashy Songs (1997) *** Let's Be Friends (2000) *** Street Gang (2008) *** Sesame Street: A Celebration - 40 Years of Life on the Street (2009) ** Press Kits *** Season 36 Press Kit (2005) *** Sesame Beginnings Press Kit (Pam Arciero's bio) (2006) *** Season 38 Press Kit (2007) *** Pam Arciero's O'Neil Puppetry Bio Image:Character01.jpg Image:Character02.jpg